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Post by Flatypus on Aug 23, 2009 0:30:27 GMT
Actually, I'm not sure whether it is or not since I find myself in partial agreement with bits of it.
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Post by aubrey on Aug 23, 2009 13:39:21 GMT
None of these supposedly PC terms - Follically and vertically challenged are favourites - are ever used seriously. I know they're only jokes; but is there a real PC term that we can all have a laugh at? Or just things that right-wingers have thought up?
I remember a Telegraph article which said, in an aside, that New York is a PC city because they have ramps on the pavements for wheelchairs. Like we have and always have had to allow people with prams to cross the road more easily? That really is pathetic, if you find your self getting upset by stuff like that.
And these same people are quite happy to talk about enhanced interrogation and extraordinary rendition, hoping their mothers won't hear them supporting torture and kidnapping.
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Post by Flatypus on Aug 23, 2009 23:12:48 GMT
It was intended as a joke article. I remember an edition of In Touch though where most American cities do not have tactile kerb and crossing pavement markers because putting them in for the blind was held to be discriminatory and some blind organisations themselves complained that it implied they could not look after themselves. Given the American propensity for suing when they fall foul of their own idiocy I should a good case could be made that if the blind can, they are doing better than a goodly proportion of sighted Americans.
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Post by aubrey on Aug 24, 2009 8:41:06 GMT
No, I know. But you'll often get people, when trying to think of a ridiculously PC term, will come up with something like those in the article, as if it is a real term, used by a real pinko. And they never are. I think that a good 90% of the PC thing was based on things that were made up - like the scare stories of Loony Left Councils in the 80s. The big one there was Baa Baa Black Sheep being banned. It never was. Some teacher read in The Sun that it was, and decided to play safe. And all the stories about Christmas being banned - none of them are true, though they get dragged out every year, by the same papers.
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Post by everso on Aug 24, 2009 14:39:08 GMT
Aubrey, how do you actually know for certain that they aren't true? Because another newspaper or radio or t.v. programme tells you they aren't?
How do you know they are telling the truth?
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Post by housesparrow on Aug 24, 2009 15:33:59 GMT
The banning of Christmas decorations (for reasons other than health and safety) in some public offices was given quite wide coverage last year in papers I would trust.
But what annoys me is when the "right" thing to say changes without public announcement, and the person who continues using the old term is made to feel a social outcast. The phrases "mentally retarded" or "backward" were replaced with "mental handicap" then "learning difficulties" ; someone decided this wasn't right either so it became "learning disabilities" and so on.
Just think of the consequences of referring to a black or Asian person as "coloured" - once thought of as the polite alternative to black.
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Post by alanseago on Aug 24, 2009 16:05:53 GMT
There are those who can make any label offensive. I have never been offended if a Frenchman calls me 'Rosbif' but any other French present are invariably angered by it. I could imagine being offended if someone 'spat' it at me or preceded it with 'sal' (dirty).
There are those who become quite embarrassed if I refer to myself as un rosbif.
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Post by Flatypus on Aug 27, 2009 0:58:30 GMT
Alan's right and there are those who will claim a term offensive in all circumstances just because it is for some and they want to play the martyr. Attempts to call common usage offensive and then change it only result in new terms taking on old prejudice they have done nothing to address. Often these misguided attempts at language revision make terms offensive where they never were before. I'm delighted to hear homosexuals call themselves 'queer' and dark people what these boards usually force us to refer to as The N word because the only times I have heard those used as offensive in themselves is by people whose prejudice is to the thing and use any word for the thing offensively. The 'classic' is of course American terms for their African-ancestored population. They have been the N word, 'Negro' (that is the Spanish for the Latin), 'Black (originally a grossly abusive term), 'Race' (as in 'Race music'), 'Colored' (one I prefer), 'Afro-American' and latterly and most ridiculously, 'People of Color' who must never ever an any account be insulted as 'Colored'. What the hell does 'of colour' mean if not 'coloured'   The reality of course is that all these successive changes of wording have done nothing whatsoever to dismantle American racism on either side including some Negroes looking for pejorative usages so they can play the martyr pretending that all such usage is intended pejoratively. I do not believe that my old Classics Master asking me "Do you think that Plautus was a N1gger?" intended it in any way pejoratively whatsoever. Since he evidently knew Greek and Latin and their culture fluently but was enslaved from Carthage where the going language was close to Hebrew, one assumes very unlikely. Even native North Africans then were probably more the Berber ('Barbarian'?) and 'Arab' that they are today than 'Black'. I thought we had got rid of all this Victorian euphemism years ago, but all we really did was to change it so that we can used sexual words that Charles Dickens would never have dared (at least in front of a lady, while the lady delights in her right to be as foul-mouthed as she likes) but we dare call Tiny Tim a Cripple (and some would even wince at 'Disabled') or Quilp a Dwarf. some come out in the open while others balance them by being hidden away. There is some truth in some of the suppression of religious terms but it is mostly American and nothing to do with offence. It is related to extending that law separating church and state to extremes, so a Town Hall Nativity scene can expect challenge from militant atheists as State endorsement of Christianity. 'Happy Holiday' covers non-believers celebrating New Year and the small but concentrated proportion of Jews Hanukah at about the same time as well as the wholly invented 'Black Christmas' of Kwanza. I am all for 'Winter Festival' but why not its traditional name of Yuletide? Some English cities have such a predominance of Muslims and Hindus compared to believing Christians that they do no longer have any real excuse for a mid-winter Christian festival. People who celebrate it do not attend church, do not believe in it as history and in fact are celebrating Saturnalia and the Festival of Fools more than anything Christian (and probably always did). Father Christmas (not that upstart St. Nicholas merged with him across the Atlantic) and Old Father Time (and Death) are all aspects of the same 'Dark Sun' deity merged with Woden, so why pretend anything Christian about them? Herod and the Christ Child are Christianisations of the destructive dying Winter Sun and Old Year and the newly born Sun and Year. It makes better sense to remember that it takes a few days, especially in winter conditions, to be sure that the Solstice has actually passed and the Sun is on the rise and the days getting longer again. The reasoning behind these 'Winterfests' was that the holiday had extended to include both Chritmas and New Year, and to be inclusive saying that this is a secular holiday as open to non-Christians as to believers. the idea that any more Muslims would be offended at celebrating the alleged birth of their Prophet Isa other than their version of Cromwell's unmerry men confiscating Christmas dinners is pure tabloid antisemitic muck-stirring. There's a potentially dangerous backlash to PC euphemism as well. When the wording for a disability is minimised, it both confuses the issue as to what the problem really is, so how to handle it, and it decreases the degree of problem as well. I resent the use of visually impaired to mean blind. It sounds like it is telling the blind that their vision is only impaired, so why the fuss? While those of us whose vision really is impaired get left out as if we have no problem at all. No spectacles can ever correct two eyes which (to quite an accurate French insult) disent 'merde' l'un à l'autre to see exactly the same thing at exactly the same depth of focus in all cases. but if even the blind are no more than visually impaired, the rest of us should keep our trap shut and stop complaining! Likewise 'Learning difficulties'. What is that? One of the attention deficit disorders? Deafness? Inability to see what is written on a board? You mean retarded, mentally subnormal, in the delightful and tolerant language of yore Simple. Now we know what kind of 'difficulty' we are dealing with, so how to treat it, not sounding like some Dark Age doctor with only dry fever, running feveror see your confessor fast to diagnose! |
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Post by everso on Aug 27, 2009 13:55:12 GMT
There's a potentially dangerous backlash to PC euphemism as well. When the wording for a disability is minimised, it both confuses the issue as to what the problem really is, so how to handle it, and it decreases the degree of problem as well. I resent the use of visually impaired to mean blind. It sounds like it is telling the blind that their vision is only impaired, so why the fuss? While those of us whose vision really is impaired get left out as if we have no problem at all. No spectacles can ever correct two eyes which (to quite an accurate French insult) disent 'merde' l'un à l'autre to see exactly the same thing at exactly the same depth of focus in all cases. but if even the blind are no more than visually impaired, the rest of us should keep our trap shut and stop complaining! Likewise 'Learning difficulties'. What is that? One of the attention deficit disorders? Deafness? Inability to see what is written on a board? You mean retarded, mentally subnormal, in the delightful and tolerant language of yore Simple. Now we know what kind of 'difficulty' we are dealing with, so how to treat it, not sounding like some Dark Age doctor with only dry fever, running feveror see your confessor fast to diagnose! Good post! I especially agree with the "disabilities"thing. When you know someone who is blind (as I do) you know that their vision isn't impaired. They have no vision to be impaired, for crying out loud! Similarly, "learning difficulties". This seems to encompass those who are having a bit of trouble reading, and some poor deaf dumb and blind kid in a wheelchair. There IS a difference. And, yes, you're correct. Using tippy-toe euphamisms definitely minimises the more serious disabilities. |
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Post by aubrey on Aug 27, 2009 14:55:51 GMT
Aubrey, how do you actually know for certain that they aren't true? Because another newspaper or radio or t.v. programme tells you they aren't? How do you know they are telling the truth? It seemed to be a well-researched article, asking the councils involved, etc. It could have been all lies. I'd be inclined to think that The Sun lies more than The Guardian, though. Doesn't Visually Impaired cover people who have limited vision as well as those with no vision at all? Quite a lot of people with white sticks or guide dogs aren't blind, they have limited vision. Actually, I'd agree with you about euphemising disability. I think that crippled is a reasonable word, for a description of an ailment, but cripple for a person isn't. |
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Post by alanseago on Aug 27, 2009 15:09:19 GMT
I have limited vision. I cannot see anything more than 24 miles away.
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Post by everso on Aug 27, 2009 15:54:24 GMT
I'd be inclined to think that The Sun lies more than The Guardian, though. Why though? Doesn't The Guardian have an agenda too? Why would you think that one newspaper would lie to suit its aims when another wouldn't? Yes it does. But I think if someone has no vision at all it's a bit insulting to suggest they have "impaired vision". They are blind. Would "a crippled person" be o.k.? We'd say "a blind person" or "a deaf person". |
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Post by Patrick on Aug 27, 2009 17:13:07 GMT
How about this then; Amongst the "Partially Sighted" community - a certain type of blind person - the type who was deliberately 'needy' and didn't make an effort to even attempt to do things for themselves would be known as "A Swede"!
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Post by trubble on Aug 27, 2009 17:38:03 GMT
What's the name for that disability where people grow chips on their shoulders?
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Post by trubble on Aug 27, 2009 17:42:24 GMT
I have limited vision. I cannot see anything more than 24 miles away. So you've never seen the moon? Oh Alan!   |
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Post by trubble on Aug 27, 2009 17:43:41 GMT
How about this then; Amongst the "Partially Sighted" community - a certain type of blind person - the type who was deliberately 'needy' and didn't make an effort to even attempt to do things for themselves would be known as "A Swede"! I like it. But why? |
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Post by aubrey on Aug 27, 2009 20:24:49 GMT
Yes, but it's not very specific. ("A cripple" implies that it is the most important thing about them - the only thing that matters.)
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Post by everso on Aug 27, 2009 23:49:34 GMT
Yes, but it's not very specific. ("A cripple" implies that it is the most important thing about them - the only thing that matters.) [/color] Did you mean that you'd need to elaborate on their disability? Or that you shouldn't mention it at all? I'm not clear as to your meaning. |
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Post by aubrey on Aug 28, 2009 9:00:36 GMT
If you need to refer to it it would be a for a practical reason, wouldn't it? Something like for a guest list for a function, where you might need ramps, or something like that. So you would need to say in what way they were crippled. So just saying crippled would be pointless.
There's a great song that Martin Carthy does called The Three Cripples, which seems to mean anything the writer wanted it to mean:
Three cripples from London all out on the spree
They went down to the country
They ate they drank three down or more
And they swore somebody would pay the score
Sing rumpty tumpty tiddly ti do
Diddlety more
And when the time to pay did come
They called the waiter into the room
Says one of them Here take charge of my eye
Says the other one Here lay these teeth by
Sing rumpty tumpty tiddly ti do
Diddlety more
The waiter he ran downstairs in a fright
And he told his master with all of his might
Oh Lord if upstairs you had been
And you'd seen the sights that I've just seen
For they're pulling out arms and eyes like fun (?)
And they're screwing their legs off one by one
Sing rumpty tumpty tiddly ti do
Diddlety more
They sent for the parson to come to pray
To try to drive them all away
But nothing wouldn't do till a soldier came
For they didn't value him nor his name
Sing rumpty tumpty tiddly ti do
Diddlety more
Oh the soldier he smiled through all the spree
And he went and told the company
He says if they'd all go away
Their shots were all settled they'd nothing to pay
So they screwed on their legs and they hopped away
Sing rumpty tumpty tiddly ti do
Diddlety more
Transcribed by Garry Gillard.
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Post by Patrick on Aug 28, 2009 14:28:33 GMT
Don't you just love a good Ballad!  Here's one of my favourites, from Tom Lehrer; "About a maid Ill sing a song,
Sing rickety-tickety-tin,
About a maid Ill sing a song
Who didnt have her family long.
Not only did she do them wrong,
She did evryone of them in, them in,
She did evryone of them in.
One morning in a fit of pique,
Sing rickety-tickety-tin,
One morning in a fit of pique,
She drowned her father in the creek.
The water tasted bad for a week,
And we had to make do with gin, with gin,
We had to make do with gin.
Her mother she could never stand,
Sing rickety-tickety-tin,
Her mother she cold never stand,
And so a cyanide soup she planned.
The mother died with a spoon in her hand,
And her face in a hideous grin, a grin,
Her face in a hideous grin.
She set her sisters hair on fire,
Sing rickety-tickety-tin,
She set her sisters hair on fire,
And as the smoke and flame rose highr,
Danced around the funeral pyre,
Playin a violin, -olin,
Playin a violin.
She weighted her brother down with stones,
Rickety-tickety-tin,
She weighted her brother down with stones,
And sent him off to davy jones.
All they ever found were some bones,
And occasional pieces of skin, of skin,
Occasional pieces of skin.
One day when she had nothing to do,
Sing rickety-tickety-tin,
One day when she had nothing to do,
She cut her baby brother in two,
And served him up as an irish stew,
And invited the neighbors in, -bors in,
Invited the neighbors in.
And when at last the police came by,
Sing rickety-tickety-tin,
And when at last the police came by,
Her little pranks she did not deny,
To do so she would have had to lie,
And lying, she knew, was a sin, a sin,
Lying, she knew, was a sin.
My tragic tale, I wont prolong,
Rickety-tickety-tin,
My tragic tale I wont prolong,
And if you do not enjoy the song,
Youve yourselves to blame if its too long,
You should never have let me begin, begin,
You should never have let me begin." |
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The reality of course is that all these successive changes of wording have done nothing whatsoever to dismantle American racism on either side including some Negroes looking for pejorative usages so they can play the martyr pretending that all such usage is intended pejoratively.
A.P.P.S
S C 