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Post by trubble on Dec 3, 2008 11:51:34 GMT
Post Script: The problem with writing messages about important things rather than frivolous is that I start a reply, get interupted, continue, interupted, continue and so on until I have forgotten what I set out to say and sometimes by the time I finish it I just don't have the will the post it or reread it to check it so I don't know if what I wrote is a load of guff or not.
I think I sound like I'm telling you what you think, I didn't mean to, I meant 'I get the impression that maybe...' so just preface everything with that for those parts of the post.
It's interesting to me to see what you say about the irish and ireland because you seem to see a different, but just as real, side of it than I do.
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Post by riotgrrl on Dec 3, 2008 11:52:17 GMT
I honestly don't know but I think you're over-complicating some things and I'm just about to over-simplify some  . People in the UK feel they have to have an opinion or make distinctions, when I was in England I used to write Eire on the letters to Ireland and thought the 'Republic of' was important, but people in the Republic have just always called it Ireland, it seems. From your descriptions of the Irish in Glasgow, you meet a different breed than I do. You meet the people who are carrying on some Disney-type version of the situation, passed down as their birthright or something, or who have experienced real bigotry and sectarianism first hand and cannot imagine that it doesn't exist everywhere. The push for an all Ireland from those in the 26 counties has never been strong in my own personal experience. There were the new IRA-Sinn Fein types who mainly just hated Britain and enjoyed fighting opression in the North and pretending it was the South's concern and there were the old guard, the old IRA/Sinn Fein types, who remained true to the original cause of freedom from British Rule, but the majority of people I've met were just kind of 'ah, get over it, we've moved on really and anyway, one country is never gonna work now'. We all had to vote in a referendum to allow that Good Friday agreement to go ahead and we had to vote to renounce our claim on the North and we renounced it quite happily as it happens. The vote was unequivocal, the feeling in the country (Ireland) (Republic of..) that i noticed was 'dear god you lot actually agreed on something? Go for it and good luck mates.' Great post by the way. Given me a lot to think about.  Sometimes we have really good discussions on here and I think it's a shame we're not a bit busier and having other views fed into the debate too. |
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Post by riotgrrl on Dec 3, 2008 11:54:45 GMT
Post Script: The problem with writing messages about important things rather than frivolous is that I start a reply, get interupted, continue, interupted, continue and so on until I have forgotten what I set out to say and sometimes by the time I finish it I just don't have the will the post it or reread it to check it so I don't know if what I wrote is a load of guff or not. I think I sound like I'm telling you what you think, I didn't mean to, I meant 'I get the impression that maybe...' so just preface everything with that for those parts of the post. It's interesting to me to see what you say about the irish and ireland because you seem to see a different, but just as real, side of it than I do. I find talking to you about this fascinating because of that very thing - that we see the same/(is it the same?) thing from different points of view and are both trying to understand it from where the other is standing. (you know what I mean!!!!) Certainly the plastic Paddies of old Glasgow town would have us believe that the 26 counties are full of good ole Irish people wearing the green and singing rebel songs and being oppressed by the British and desperate to reclaim the missing 6 counties. But I've had a sense - and you back this up - that, in fact, the 26 County Republic has become a somewhat more sophisticated nation with a more sophisticated idea of itself than they would have me believe. |
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Post by trubble on Dec 3, 2008 11:55:27 GMT
I've been trying to think about how we distinguish the 2 meanings of 'Ireland' and we do the opposite to you, we say 'Ireland' for the Republic and '32 counties' for all of. That's really interesting. I'm not sure if it suggest underlying meaning, or if it's just interesting verbally, but I'll have a think about it. Me neither. Me too.  |
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Post by trubble on Dec 3, 2008 12:02:31 GMT
Certainly the plastic Paddies of old Glasgow town would have us believe that the 26 counties are full of good ole Irish people wearing the green and singing rebel songs and being oppressed by the British and desperate to reclaim the missing 6 counties. I think that existed up until the Celtic Tiger but mainly in the West and South counties (Kerry and the like) and even then, mainly in the rural parts. I think it was used as a tourist attraction as much as anything else half the time! The Americans loved it.  It probably still exists in places but I don't meet it. I meet the old guard sometimes but they're not even Sinn Fein voters, they all vote Fianna Fail. I live in the most 'sophisicated' part of the country in some ways. My area is very liberal, very linked to its anglo-history, very pro-Europe and houses a lot of the leading business people and media types. So I could be out of touch with the rest of the country, mind! |
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Post by riotgrrl on Dec 3, 2008 12:42:34 GMT
Where you live sounds lovely. Can we all come and visit?  |
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Post by Patrick on Dec 3, 2008 13:56:14 GMT
Sometimes we have really good discussions on here and I think it's a shame we're not a bit busier and having other views fed into the debate too. I'm getting there - any minute now! - Just reformatted me hard drive so catching up. Any minute now there's going to be a blinder of opinion on it's way!  |
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Post by everso on Dec 3, 2008 18:54:20 GMT
There's a bit of a myth going on with the 'land of a thousand welcomes' and so on but we believe our own hype here! and I think that helps to make us a bit nicer to tourists. I often complain about the Irish pretending to be friendly when they're not really but when I visit England I always come back noting the difference between an English friendly welcome and an Irish one. Not that there aren't wonderful individuals, just a general vibe that's different. I was shocked when a couple of years ago a man died on one of our busiest train stations. He got off the train in rush hour and fell to the ground having a heart attack and people strode on to get to work in time. The whole place should have stopped. He was only in his thirties and a priest and as it turned out a very good one when the eulogies came in. How sad that people walked past. In the early days of my pregnancy I fainted at a bus stop in town and when I came round people were stepping over me to get on the bus that had just arrived. But that's understandable. It was a number 8. Mr. E. and I were in a pub in Kilarney one evening and there were three old guys up at the bar, pretty much several sheets to the wind. One kept saying (and this went on for a good hour or so) "Well, I'm off home to the wife" and one of the others would say "Well, just have one more" and so it went on. He never did leave while we were there. At the same time, it being the evening after a world cup qualifying match between Ireland and France when Ireland had taken a fair old beating, some extremely brave frenchmen began singing La Marseillaise. Mr. E. whispered to me to make for the door and we couldn't believe it when absolutely nothing happened. No yobbos started throwing chairs around, no drunken chavs started fisticuffs, nothing. Unbelievable. |
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Post by Patrick on Dec 4, 2008 12:32:06 GMT
OK! Here's the blinder! The analogy par excellence! I was cutting me toenails this morning and there's one at the end that is truly horrid to look at - nearly all "growth" and very little nail - really must get something to sort it out. Anyway - it occurred to me that that bad nail is my Northern Ireland - it is Neanderthal to look at but with a bit of treatment it will be alright in the end and be able to become a part of the rest of my beautiful body, but at the moment I'm just ignoring it! There.  P.S. If anyone has seen the part of my brain that is capable of serious discourse, please post it back to "Stubby World" P.O. Box 129 Lancaster LA1
Oh, and I'm Sorry. |
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Post by motorist on Dec 4, 2008 13:23:27 GMT
If N.I is the growth, is the Republic the rest of the toe? Or the whole foot?
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