My big fat gypsy wedding

[ladylinda]

Jan 27, 2011 11:30:29 GMT @riotgrrl said:

What astonishes me is the sexism, the patriarchy.

Have always thought that travelling people are variously;

1 - an ancient peoples with their traditions that should be respected, BUT
2 - needing to fit in with modern planning laws and the like a bit more.

Now that I've seen the reality of life for travelling women, I see little to protect and retain about this wonderful and 'unique culture'.

Integration now.

OK, let's get a few things sorted.

The so-called 'travelling community' is actually a right mix of different ethnic, cultural and religious groups all of them having different ways of life and different attitudes.

The people being featured on the programme so far (which I've found deeply embarrassing and atrociously naff but that's another matter) are (to date) Irish tinkers. They speak English or Shelta Thari, their women don't work (they don't even hawk or make any craft stuff to sell), they're overwhelmingly Catholic, the men tend to either work at casual labour, selling or not at all. They're generally filthy dirty, antisocial and give the rest of the travelling community a bad name.

Then you've got what we call the 'mumpers' - in English you'd call them tramps, I guess - who essentially are nomadic bums. They can be of any ethnic origin and don't wortk at all (though the more enterprising ones sell stuff they've found or nicked).

Then you've got the Scottish travellers who are IMHO a cut above the Irish ones. They tend to work, have a better attitude towards their womenfolk and be less egocentric.

Then you've got the diddakai - the travellers who have got some genuine Romani blood in them but maybe a way back but they still try and carry on the life.

Then you've got the tiny handful of trtue Romanies who again fall into two main groups.

There are the ones who are kennicks - people who live in houses or 'tigns' (flats/apartments) - and basically make their living by wheeling and dealing.

Then there are the tiny handful of true Roma who still 'jaul the drom' - travel the road - though these days in caravans or other motorised vehicles rather than the old hand-painted, hand-built 'vardos' we used to use.

The Roma's attitude towards women is complex. They are far more egalitarian than other travellers but there is still a residual sense of men being worth more.

On the other hand most Roma women work, either by stuff like 'dukkering the vast' - reading the palms, other kinds of fortune telling, making 'kipsis' - baskets - or other craft stuff, and of course by buying and sellng.

What makes me most sad is that the programme has concentrated on a bunch of dead-beat tinkers who are an embarrassment to the true prala and pheni - brothers and sisters;' who do NOT live by the 'leis prala' - the law of the brothers; who do NOT have courts to settle their differences as we do; and who are dirty, loud and aggressive. In Romani, 'mokardi' - unclean - is one of the WORST insults you can hurl at another gypy.

Unlike the tinkers, we clean up after ourselves.

Anyway, to my dear gadje friends (I'm married to a gadje, after all!) I'll say:

Mishto hom me dikava tuti!

I'm pleased to see you!

[Weyland]

I've never seen it, but I can't help wondering why it's labeled "Gypsy" if it isn't.

Chambers says this:

gypsy or gipsy
n (with cap) a Romany, a member of a wandering people of Indian origin, living mainly in Europe and the US; (loosely) a person who lives, or looks, like a Gypsy; (with cap) the Romany language; a cunning rogue ().
adj (with cap) of, or characteristic of, Gypsies; out-of-door (eg of meals, etc); unconventional; operating independently or illegally ().
vi (now ) to live like a Gypsy, camp out, or picnic.
[Egyptian, because once thought to have come from Egypt]
gypsydom or gypsyism n (also with cap).
gypsy moth n a kind of tussock moth, having whitish wings with dark line markings.
gypsywort n a labiate plant (Lycopus europaeus) with which Gypsies were reputed to stain their skin.

I guess it's the "loosely" thing. Do they ever make it any clearer in the programme, Ev?

[Patrick]

I was 'sort of' half listening to it 'sort of' watching it. I'm not sure if they (Channel Four) do make any references (Best Beloved says not) to their specific origin. I suppose it's the TV people version of "Literary Licence", unfortunately.

Thanks for the wonderful insight Lin. It has merely confirmed my suspicions.

[riotgrrl]

Lin, thanks for that input.

It certainly cleared things up a bit. You're right, the families featured in this programme are Irish Catholics, very much so. Lots of first communions (and wow, those dresses that bruise the hips of the young girls!)

I wondered if they really were Romany.

I wonder now why it has the word 'gypsy' in the title, as that's a word I would normal associate with Romanies rather than 'tinkers'.

Tell me this Lin, do your family do that whole fancy, wedding thing? Or is it different again?

[everso]

Lin, thanks very much for that. I can imagine just how embarrassing that programme is for you to watch since the title says "Gypsy". From what I remember of it, I think they are referred to as Travellers in the actual programme, however.

As you say, the true Roma gypsies are very much a minority and most people's negative views of gypsies are really negative views of Irish tinkers.

[ladylinda]

I've never seen it, but I can't help wondering why it's labeled "Gypsy" if it isn't.


Probably for the same reason that all Muslims get labelled as being fundamentalists and terrorists, Weyland.

I couldn't care less what the dictionary says. During the porajmos relatives of mine who were unfortunate enough to live in areas controlled by the Nazis were murdered. My late 'uncle' - nano (means uncle in Romani) - but was actually my second cousin - lost both his parents, his elder brother and sister in Auschwitz because of their ethnic origin. He was smuggled out by friends and was also helped by 'righteous gadjes' - we have them just as the Jews have righteous Gentiles - to escape to Andorra and, ultimately, to Britain. He was my mother's cousin.

Anyway, my uncle was the last in the family to lead the life. My mum found it too hard and gave it up. I was born in a home and I've always lived in one (though I have got a caravan as well).

Prejudice will always label people who won't conform to the norms and stereotypes of society. We are the ONLY ethnic minority that it's still LEGAl to discriminate against.

As far as ALL true Roma are concerned the Irish tinkers are a bunch of mokardi chorodies - an untranslatable expression; the nearest English equivalent I can think of is 'white trash.'

They do NOT live by the law of the brothers and we do NOT look on them as being of the brotherhood.

The ONLY thing we respect them for is those who still carry on some of the traditions they stole from us.

To be honest the crusties - New Age Travellers - are closer to our outlook than the tinkers.

I'm not dissing them for their way of life but it really gets me mad when people use the word 'gypsy' to refer to them when they are as entitled to THAT word as, say, the IRA or UDA are to call their terrorists 'soldiers.'

[ladylinda]

Jan 28, 2011 17:58:03 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Lin, thanks for that input.

It certainly cleared things up a bit. You're right, the families featured in this programme are Irish Catholics, very much so. Lots of first communions (and wow, those dresses that bruise the hips of the young girls!)

I wondered if they really were Romany.

I wonder now why it has the word 'gypsy' in the title, as that's a word I would normal associate with Romanies rather than 'tinkers'.

Tell me this Lin, do your family do that whole fancy, wedding thing? Or is it different again?

We have our own wedding ceremonies and most of them don't take place in church at all.

I could write about that if anyone was interested.

Some of the dresses in the programme would give me a hernia if I'd had to wear them on my wedding day!

(Blimey, I weigh 13 stone!)

[riotgrrl]

Well, Lin's certainly convinced me that these 'big fat gypsy weddings' are not that at all, but rather a look at a different community altogether.

[Weyland]

Jan 29, 2011 12:32:51 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Well, Lin's certainly convinced me that these 'big fat gypsy weddings' are not that at all, but rather a look at a different community altogether.

Or communities, according to this. None of them look like Roma to my uninformed eye, especially considering the fake-tan* comment.

I guess they should've called it My Big Fat Dyed-People-Who-Don't-Live-in-Static-Dwellings Wedding. Or something. (I see the whole thing is available on 4OD. I won't be watching it.)
________
* Great brand name, Tanfastic. I think it's Boots stuff.

[ladylinda]

Gypsy weddings

OK, there are several ways in which the Roma organise our weddings.

In the first place, if two people agree to live together and call themselves a couple that's enough to make them married in the eyes of the Romani community.

Some more formal ways of doing it include:

Handfasting - the bride and groom join hands in front of the bandolier and swear to be true to one another. Sometimes we share bread, some tribes add a drop of each partner's blood on the bread which is then exchanged and eaten by the other partner.

Another way of doing it is for a couple to sit down with friends and family and a bit of salt and bread is put on the bride's knee. The groom takes some of the bread, puts salt on it and then eats it. The bride then does the same thing. Joining together the salt and the bread (two powerful symbols of hospitality) constitutes a marriage and promises a happy future for the couple.

Lots of food is eaten and drink is drunk. Sometimes the merriment can go on for days! Singing and dancing is also traditional.

Wedding presents are rarely given; instead gifts of money are presented to help the newly-weds start their new life off with a good chance of succeeding.

After the ceremony, the bride's family kisses her and they tnen shed tears as they loosen her hair, which is a symbol for her newly married status. Her mother-in-law helps the bridge to knot her 'diklo' - neckerchief or headscarf - which signifies that she is now married. She must always wear this diklo in public.

The bride then moves in her new home, provided by her husband.

Now for the personal slant on this (all these ceremonies vary from 'vitsa'- tribe or clan - to another.

I don't always wear a diklo in public though I often do. Generally I have my hair uncovered but I used to cover it a lot more when I was younger (especially when I met my Uncle Jaime who was a bit of a traditionalist!)

Because I married a non-gypsy we got wedded in church but my family also gave me a private ritual with just Mike, my relatives and gypsy friends present. We did the handfasting bit and ate salt and bread but without the blood on it!

Both my non-gypsy husband Mike and myself each said to one another the magic words 'Me kam tu' - I love you!

[aubrey]

In the first place, if two people agree to live together and call themselves a couple that's enough to make them married in the eyes of the Romani community.

I'm waiting for the C4 series based on that.

[bonbonlarue]

I've just watched an episode.. [ok..late to the party once again] and these are just the people who took over and wrecked my pub and only left when armed police and dog handlers arrived...I can fully understand why hotels cancel bookings.

As for the usage of the word 'Gypsy'. I believe it's a common description of a nomadic life and bears no particular malice. If we're going to be picky, maybe the phrase 'White Trash' may be more suitable?

[Weyland]

Jan 30, 2011 16:23:27 GMT bonbonlarue said:

I've just watched an episode.. [ok..late to the party once again] and these are just the people who took over and wrecked my pub and only left when armed police and dog handlers arrived...I can fully understand why hotels cancel bookings.

As for the usage of the word 'Gypsy'. I believe it's a common description of a nomadic life and bears no particular malice. If we're going to be picky, maybe the phrase 'White Trash' may be more suitable?

No, I wasn't being picky this time, BB, just curious.

"White Trash"? You mean they're Tories or LibDems Coalition Perpetrators as well?

Free Cross-Cultural Bonus Fact: pret-à-porter is an anagram of perpetrator.

[ladylinda]

As for the tinkers, they're just 'puyuria' - another untranslatable phrase. Nearest English equivalent is something like 'wannabes.'

They're wannabe gypsies and that's why they try to take the name and title of a nobler, older tribe that HAS values and customs and HAS a relationship with the non-Romani world that is NOT just based on selfishness and being uncaring.

I think I'll post a new thread tomorrow which will be a little bit of English history that might come as a bit of a surprise to a few people here!

[everso]

Last night's episode was an eye opener. These travelers are stuck in the 1950s, by all accounts.

[riotgrrl]

i'm just catching up on last night's episode the now.

in the light of what lin has said, i'm watching carefully as to whether they're being described as 'gypsies' or 'travellers' or what.

The word 'Romany' doesnt seem to be used at all . . . .

[Weyland]

Feb 2, 2011 19:49:19 GMT @riotgrrl said:

i'm just catching up on last night's episode the now.

in the light of what lin has said, i'm watching carefully as to whether they're being described as 'gypsies' or 'travellers' or what.

The word 'Romany' doesnt seem to be used at all . . . .

Against my better judgement, I watched it. Very depressing. The eleven-year-old slave's teeth reminded me of Baldrick.

Even worse, the balcony parts of the second wedding dress might well have fitted the tasty Scouse dressmaker's, but they certainly didn't fit the bride's.

The words Roma and Romany were not to be heard at all. The only mention of Gypsies was by the presenter. The subjects collectively said Traveller only twice in total. I expect the few bits of their own language spoken were Shelta (origin Ireland) rather than Romani (origin India), but Lin will know for sure.