Sexual Discrimination of Rape Victims

[swl]

Just came across a story about the Central Scotland Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Centre in my local paper. link

What caught my eye was

"Set up 14 years ago, it provides a service at one of the most difficult times in their life for women – and men because rape and sexual abuse is not solely a female violation.

And it is the organisation's commitment to support male survivors that saw it, along with colleagues in the South West, asked to leave the Rape Crisis Scottish network."


What!!!!?

I phoned up the Centre to check if this was true and they confirmed it. As the woman on the phone said "If a brother and sister come to us as victims of sexual abuse, are we meant to turn the boy away?"

I've offered to help.

This is outrageous. Can anybody give me a coherent justification as to why the Rape Crisis Scottish network should be allowed to carry on with such discriminatory and sexist practices?

[trubble]

I am sure riot can give you loads of info on it as I remember her discussing this before quite vociferously.

Meanwhile, is it stupid to suggest that the services, whilst compatible in many ways, are probably better if segregated? There are probably overlapping reasons behind the abuse of men and the abuse of women but the victims are different and perhaps the perpetrators too? Does it ever happen that an abuser does not choose one gender to abuse and stick with it?

I think I would prefer to know a service I accessed was for women only, even if that seems illogical, I think I would feel safer.

[housesparrow]

No, but no doubt they are prepared to justify it.

However I am reminded of the piece Woman's Hour ran a couple of years ago over the closure of Rape Crisis Centres. These were criticised for being fiercely anti-man. One of the women interviewed said the "aren't men horrible" mantra was very much in evidence when she visited one as a client, and said it was still discernible when she had contact with them later in her job within the criminal justice system.

[swl]

I understand entirely that women survivors may not be comfortable about being around men for quite some time, but to actively exclude men (even boys) is a bit extreme imo. I also imagine that a fair bit of support is done in the home and away from the centre.

I'm hoping Riot can shine a light here because I'm genuinely shocked at this.

[everso]

I was a telephone volunteer for our local Rape and Sexual Abuse Counselling Centre for a couple of years. We did not cater for men at all. When I queried this I was told "If the men feel the need for counselling then let them set up their own centre". Any calls from men were supposed to be passed on to other organisations although, to be fair, I don't think I ever had a call from a man claiming sexual abuse or rape.

I did find some of the volunteers a bit anti men but, thinking about it, some of them had actually suffered rape and sexual abuse at the hands of men so it's hardly surprising their views might be coloured slightly.

Our centre closed down about 6 years ago unfortunately.

[Flatypus]

A friend told me how she went to Rape Crisis Centre for advice on legal proceedings against her parents for incarcerating her as a teenager. They wanted all the gory details of what her father had done. When she said it was her mother, they blacklisted her from all their outlets and related associations.

It is tradition that women are eternal victims exempt from equality with superior men. A movement now called Feminism asserted women's equal responsibility. That deprived women of their traditional privilege of pretending to be the inferior 'weaker' sex, so a new generation also called themselves 'feminists' to restore all the privilege that equality had lost them and to enforce Thatcherite economic values on women because the earlier feminists had been part of opposition to Capitalism, and even to traditional Socialism as far too conservative 'male'-orientated. All these organisations are just promoting Victorian values against changing society to take account of the 'feminine' and personal instead of suppressing it beneath the 'masculine' and public and restoring women's traditional exemption from responsibility equal with men and rejection of any value that does not fit traditional demands upon men. There was a time when 'feminists' challenged these values. So they had to be made into their arch-conservative supporters of traditional values.

[housesparrow]

May 12, 2009 23:56:08 GMT everso said:

I was a telephone volunteer for our local Rape and Sexual Abuse Counselling Centre for a couple of years. We did not cater for men at all. When I queried this I was told "If the men feel the need for counselling then let them set up their own centre". Any calls from men were supposed to be passed on to other organisations although, to be fair, I don't think I ever had a call from a man claiming sexual abuse or rape.

I did find some of the volunteers a bit anti men but, thinking about it, some of them had actually suffered rape and sexual abuse at the hands of men so it's hardly surprising their views might be coloured slightly.

Our centre closed down about 6 years ago unfortunately.

Of course a centre set up to provide a service for raped women won't want men walking in off the street. At least Everso was given contact numbers for other organisations that could help.

But the phrase I have highlighted in red indicates that the centre was prejudiced. If it was receiving public money, it should provide a service for both sexes, even if it means setting up a separate arrangement. After all, every public body has to cater for disabled people (someone I know worked for an organisation that used up a huge chunk of its budget putting in a ramp to a rural office, even though the number of visitors each year could be counted on the fingers of one hand!).

[everso]

May 13, 2009 2:07:37 GMT Flatypus said:

A friend told me how she went to Rape Crisis Centre for advice on legal proceedings against her parents for incarcerating her as a teenager. They wanted all the gory details of what her father had done. When she said it was her mother, they blacklisted her from all their outlets and related associations.

It is tradition that women are eternal victims exempt from equality with superior men. A movement now called Feminism asserted women's equal responsibility. That deprived women of their traditional privilege of pretending to be the inferior 'weaker' sex, so a new generation also called themselves 'feminists' to restore all the privilege that equality had lost them and to enforce Thatcherite economic values on women because the earlier feminists had been part of opposition to Capitalism, and even to traditional Socialism as far too conservative 'male'-orientated. All these organisations are just promoting Victorian values against changing society to take account of the 'feminine' and personal instead of suppressing it beneath the 'masculine' and public and restoring women's traditional exemption from responsibility equal with men and rejection of any value that does not fit traditional demands upon men. There was a time when 'feminists' challenged these values. So they had to be made into their arch-conservative supporters of traditional values.

Frankly, I find that very difficult to believe. At our centre the last thing we did was demand to know "gory" details. In fact any counsellor worth his/her salt would let the woman work at their own pace. And it was immaterial who had raped or sexually abused the woman so I don't understand what you're talking about insofar as blacklisting is concerned - that simply isn't true.

Occasionally we got calls that were, shall we say, difficult to believe, but everyone was given our attention.

Sorry Piffle, I think your "friend" is having you on.

[riotgrrl]

Housey: There is no need for any charitable organisation (such as Rape Crisis) to cater for the entire population. Lots of charities cater only for one group or another, such as churches, ethnic mnority charities, disabled charities, charities for the homeless, charities for victims, etc. There is nothing about being a charity catering for a specific group of the population that forbids it from receiving public funding. That would make no sense.

Of course Rape Crisis is for female victims. That's what it was set up to do.

The psychological and physical effects of rape on men and women are completely different, and would require completely different kinds of expertise. The fact that there are no gender specific services for male victims (or very few; there are some, but mainly set up for LGBT male victims) is interesting, as it speaks to the hidden nature of that. But there is nothing sinister about it at all.

Womens Aid, which accommodates and supports women who have been the victims of domestic violence is similarly a women-only service. But that doesn't mean men aren't ever the victims of domestic violence.

Piffle - I wish you'd stop writing a whole lot of shite about this thing you call 'feminism' when it's already been pointed out to you several times that your definitions are not universally shared.

[riotgrrl]

May 12, 2009 18:22:49 GMT trubble said:

There are probably overlapping reasons behind the abuse of men and the abuse of women but the victims are different and perhaps the perpetrators too?

Most sexual assaults, on both men and women, are carried out by men who define themselves as 'straight'. Both are rooted in power, abuse and humiliation.

But the attacks are usually very different in nature - the most 'headline' example is the high high number of male victims who are urinated on by their attackers, something far less usual with female victims.

A man who is raped has his sexuality and gender role challenged. A woman who is raped has her gender role confirmed. The psychological effects are completely different.

[riotgrrl]

May 12, 2009 18:22:49 GMT trubble said:

Does it ever happen that an abuser does not choose one gender to abuse and stick with it?

Particularly when the victims are children and the perpetrators are peadophiles, the gender of the victim CAN be (but not necessarily always) irrelevant.

[riotgrrl]

May 12, 2009 21:28:50 GMT swl said:

I understand entirely that women survivors may not be comfortable about being around men for quite some time, but to actively exclude men (even boys) is a bit extreme imo. I also imagine that a fair bit of support is done in the home and away from the centre.

I'm hoping Riot can shine a light here because I'm genuinely shocked at this.

Sorry, I can't see what is extreme, shocking or even mildly suprising about a charity set up for female rape victims to exclude men.

[trubble]

Right. Good points. Right.

No one let Riot leave the board on its own for so long EVER AGAIN. We all went a bit mad there. Thank fluff she has sorted us all out before it got serious.

[trubble]

And Piffle, of course I can't know your friend's story but as a point of interest, that presumably was not the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre because they definitely (and as far as I know, any affilated branches also) cater for both male and female victims of abuse.

[swl]

Lots of charities cater only for one group or another, such as churches

And the label's usually on the tin - the "Christian" this or that and they cater regardless of sex.

ethnic mnority charities

again, "Muslim" or "Caribbean" this or that and they cater regardless of sex.

disabled charities

So long as they're disabled, they cater regardless of sex.

charities for the homeless

Homeless people, regardless of sex.

charities for victims

victims, regardless of sex.

There is nothing about being a charity catering for a specific group of the population that forbids it from receiving public funding. That would make no sense.

As I was told today, there is a specific exception made to theSex Discrimination Act that allows women's groups to discriminate in a way that would otherwise be illegal.

Of course Rape Crisis is for female victims. That's what it was set up to do

Funny, anyone looking at the name would think it's for "rape" victims. If they'd intended it to be for women only, shouldn't they have called it "Women's Rape Crisis"?

I also found out that two other groups were expelled from the Rape Crisis Network for dealing with male survivors. One in the South West and another one I forget where. The one in the South West is struggling financially and the other one has gone bust. So now in that area there is no support for rape survivors, male or female.

[riotgrrl]

When Rape Crisis was set up, the law in England and Wales was such that only females could be raped, as rape was defined as penetration of the vagina by the penis.

This is still the law in Scotland.

Therefore, the word 'rape' in the title itself indicated it was only for women.

Furthermore, there is no legal or ethical reason why a charity should state that it caters for only one gender in its title, although some obviously, such as Boys Clubs, or Womens' Guilds do.

It really is a non-issue.

Rape Crisis centres and support services are shutting down currently all over the UK. I'm not sure why it is in England, but in Scotland it's because of changes to ring-fenced grant-making funds as a result of the Single outcome Agreement.

All kinds of services have been affected as a result; SACRO have lost half their staff in Scotland for instance.

[riotgrrl]

May 13, 2009 20:38:56 GMT trubble said:

Right. Good points. Right.

No one let Riot leave the board on its own for so long EVER AGAIN. We all went a bit mad there. Thank fluff she has sorted us all out before it got serious.

I was away in Inverness on business.

[riotgrrl]

Get some perspective anyway.

The Rape Crisis movement arose out of the womens' movement; at the time it was set up the police and prosecution services did not take rape seriously. It was still legally impossible for a man to rape his wife.

As it stands now, something like 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 women are raped or sexually assaulted in their life (can't be arsed looking up the statistic, but it's a lot), while the numbers for men, although defintely desperately under-reported, are still tiny, tiny, tiny.

Sexual assault on men by other adult men or women is a very rare crime. They go against the very grain of society.

Sexual asaults on women by adult men (and very, very, very rarely adult men) happen day and daily and reflect attitudes to women which were - and to some extent still are - normalised in society.

While I fully accept that sexual assaults on men are desperately under-reported, the extent of them is unlikely to warrant large numbers of specialist services. Generic victim support services DO exist for such victims and are happy to help them.

While the extent of rapes and sexual assaults on women is sufficiently high as to constitute a health problem - 50% of rape victims are suffering from the symptoms of PTSD 3 months after the assault.

[swl]

It really isn't a non-issue Riot. Indulging in legal word play doesn't take away from the fact that men are raped too. Nobody has a clue as to the numbers because it is seen as a shaming crime, much as female rape was once regarded. Groups such as rape crisis had to fight this stigma to encourage women to come forward and, as they did, the scale of the problem was exposed and pressure to address the problem began.

For such groups to now turn around and treat men the way they chastised society for treating women is hypocritical and extremely damaging. What is the message sent out to male victims? They are being further stigmatised by being made to feel that their suffering is somehow less than a woman's. All that rot about a woman's gender being reinforced and a man's being challenged obscures the fact that the victim has suffered a severe sexual assault and the consequences depend upon their sex.

If it were to be publically known that the Rape Crisis Network expells member organisations simply for trying to help male rape victims, I think they would see a huge drop in public sympathy and donations. Certainly from men.

[housesparrow]

May 13, 2009 21:04:41 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Get some perspective anyway.

While I fully accept that sexual assaults on men are desperately under-reported, the extent of them is unlikely to warrant large numbers of specialist services. Generic victim support services DO exist for such victims and are happy to help them.

That's why this comment reported by Everso made me see red:

We did not cater for men at all. When I queried this I was told "If the men feel the need for counselling then let them set up their own centre".

It was exactly the same attitude expressed in the 1970s by golf clubs who didn't want to admit women. I mean, what a daft attitude.

The rape crisis centres have the specialist staff already there. It would have served them right if men had set up male rape centres in every town and demanded it had same specialists available to women - and the funders had felt obliged to divide what is probably an already-tight budget.