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Post by housesparrow on Nov 25, 2010 8:07:25 GMT
Community punishments are, we hear, too soft; a little suprising given that only 52% of them are completed. So should tea making be replaced by hard physical labour...and what if that doesn't work either? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11832351 |
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Post by riotgrrl on Nov 25, 2010 10:24:51 GMT
He said: "Evidence shows that orders with a clear punishment element have lower reoffending rates."
I'd like to know what evidence this is.
All the evidence I have seen (esp. from the States) is that the mor punitive, humiliating, difficult and shaming community work is, the more it brands the offender and prevents his/her ultimate reintegration. It makes little rebels into big rebels in simplistic terms.
I'm all in favour of offenders doing community work of value and purpose, but what you are doing in Engl & Wales does seem to fly in the face of the evidence we've been looking at up here in Jockland.
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on Nov 25, 2010 12:25:44 GMT
We need to outsource our prisons to China IMO. A few years in a gulag with borderline malnutrition and no human rights would cut down on re-offending IMO.
AH
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Post by tarzanontarmazepam on Nov 25, 2010 13:02:15 GMT
We need to outsource our prisons to China IMO. A few years in a gulag with borderline malnutrition and no human rights would cut down on re-offending IMO. AH Would that include China's traditions of criminalising free thinkers and political activists Alph?  |
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on Nov 25, 2010 13:16:07 GMT
We need to outsource our prisons to China IMO. A few years in a gulag with borderline malnutrition and no human rights would cut down on re-offending IMO. AH Would that include China's traditions of criminalising free thinkers and political activists Alph? Only if they got caught stealing your car radio, Chris.  People who break our laws should be shipped to some god forsaken Hell hole for a few years, it would focus the mind, encourage a desire to be well behaved once they got out and back to civilisation (you don't see that guy from "Midnight Express" getting into trouble anymore do you?...a few years in a Turkish prison helped him get his priorities right). Seriously though, we've been too soft on criminals over the last several decades, they do not fear being caught and punished, the current system is not a deterant to criminals. People go to trial for commiting DOZENS or even SCORES of crimes and get 6 months slobbing around in some cushy open prison for it...that's not punishment or deterant...which is why they do exactly the same crimes once they are released again. Give me 20 years of full control of the UK justice system and the right to do what the Hell I please with criminals and I will guarantee you a massive reduction in re-offending rates. A knock on effect will be a reduction of new offences when people see the broken shells of their local thieves, thugs and scumbags emerging timidly into the light after a few years of brutal hard labour. AH |
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Post by jean on Nov 25, 2010 13:26:29 GMT
We need to outsource our prisons to China IMO. If we adopted their criteria for capital punishment too, we'd hardly need any prisons at all. |
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on Nov 25, 2010 13:33:25 GMT
We need to outsource our prisons to China IMO. If we adopted their criteria for capital punishment too, we'd hardly need any prisons at all. Pity we didn't adopt their criteria for putting down student protests...yesterdays live BBC coverage of the protests would have been far more entertaining and rewarding. ;D AH |
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Post by everso on Nov 25, 2010 17:19:33 GMT
I love it when Alpha gets his guns out. Seriously though, you do hear about yobbos laughing in the face of the law when some out-of-touch judge hands them a community order or an asbo. I would welcome a change in the way some of them are treated. Community sentencing sounds great when you read about what it's supposed to do, but I've heard far too often that offenders aren't monitored properly and the unpaid work isn't done (and this isn't from the Daily Mail - I listen to Radio Four too!  ). Frankly, I don't think it matters whether they are locked up for a long while or released early - it seems there are many that are going to rob, steal, mug, whatever, because they are just plain bad. I know it's not a popular viewpoint, but I'm pretty tired of hearing about serial law-breakers who are constantly handed out limp-wristed sentences. There. Pick the bones out of that. ;D |
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Post by riotgrrl on Nov 25, 2010 18:33:49 GMT
I love it when Alpha gets his guns out. Seriously though, you do hear about yobbos laughing in the face of the law when some out-of-touch judge hands them a community order or an asbo. I would welcome a change in the way some of them are treated. Community sentencing sounds great when you read about what it's supposed to do, but I've heard far too often that offenders aren't monitored properly and the unpaid work isn't done (and this isn't from the Daily Mail - I listen to Radio Four too! ). Frankly, I don't think it matters whether they are locked up for a long while or released early - it seems there are many that are going to rob, steal, mug, whatever, because they are just plain bad. I know it's not a popular viewpoint, but I'm pretty tired of hearing about serial law-breakers who are constantly handed out limp-wristed sentences. There. Pick the bones out of that. ;D Well, firstly, you're not wrong in that community sentences are not properly monitored or enforced. No wonder the scumbags laugh at them . . the criminal justice social work departments should be dragged over hot coals by their dangly bits for their utter failures to properly manage this. (It might be some other body or agency in e&W but they should be similarly made accountable.) Secondly, I think you're right in that there are some people out there who are just bad to the bone, and it doesn't really matter if we sentence them to jail, make them clean out dustbins or buy them an ice cream and send them to the seaside. They're born bad. But they are the minority of offenders. The reasons why judges are seen to be handing out light sentences, or juries are not convicting people even, when it seems on the bald facts that they're a right bad 'un is because often the full facts and backgrounds of the cases are not clear to the casual reader. The decent law-abiding young person in work who attacks someone once in a drunken moment of madness . . . on paper it looks like a violent assault (as it was!), but when you have the full facts of the case in front of you you probably wouldn't want to send him to jail. The ones who are up in front of the courts time after time after time because they're alcoholics, drug addicts, mentally ill, or just really really thick to the point of retardation and can't really deal with life . . well we don't do anything by sending them to jail as they're still going to be the same (if not worse) when they come out, and will just offend again. I've often posted about the people who don't mind going to jail because their uncle, father, grandfather, grandmother, sister, etc. etc. are all in and out the jail . . jail's no punishment to them. It's just part of life. Whereas making them actually do some work for a change, something they may never have done before, could be a real challenge. For the first time in their life they have to get out their beds, etc. But it all depends on community sentences being properly monitored and carried out. |
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Post by everso on Nov 25, 2010 18:59:41 GMT
Riot, I'd certainly support community sentencing if it were properly monitored. Making someone do something that will benefit the community at least goes part way towards reparation (sort of).
You hear about drug abuse that takes place in prisons. Why can't that be sorted out? You'd think that the one place where someone could get off drugs successfully would be in jail, where (you'd assume) it's impossible to get hold of drugs and where there might be some sort of drugs programme.
That's me being naive of course.
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Post by riotgrrl on Nov 25, 2010 19:04:59 GMT
Riot, I'd certainly support community sentencing if it were properly monitored. Making someone do something that will benefit the community at least goes part way towards reparation (sort of). You hear about drug abuse that takes place in prisons. Why can't that be sorted out? You'd think that the one place where someone could get off drugs successfully would be in jail, where (you'd assume) it's impossible to get hold of drugs and where there might be some sort of drugs programme. That's me being naive of course. I've asked prison officers the very same question. Obviously some are smuggled in by visitors and passed on via kissing, etc., and, in some cases (Cornton Vale e.g.) are just thrown over the wall. You'd think that it would be possible to reduce this kind of thing to a very minimum. Yet somehow they don't seem to be able to. I don't understand it all. I don't want to say that the screws are bent, but sometimes you do wonder. |
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Post by everso on Nov 25, 2010 19:18:17 GMT
Riot, I'd certainly support community sentencing if it were properly monitored. Making someone do something that will benefit the community at least goes part way towards reparation (sort of). You hear about drug abuse that takes place in prisons. Why can't that be sorted out? You'd think that the one place where someone could get off drugs successfully would be in jail, where (you'd assume) it's impossible to get hold of drugs and where there might be some sort of drugs programme. That's me being naive of course. I've asked prison officers the very same question. Obviously some are smuggled in by visitors and passed on via kissing, etc., and, in some cases (Cornton Vale e.g.) are just thrown over the wall. You'd think that it would be possible to reduce this kind of thing to a very minimum. Yet somehow they don't seem to be able to. I don't understand it all. I don't want to say that the screws are bent, but sometimes you do wonder. Yes, I've often thought the same thing. Also, don't they carry out searches before visitors are allowed in? And, perish the thought (but they are in prison as a punishment), maybe kissing or touching shouldn't be allowed? And if they can throw drugs over walls, surely they could throw knives and guns? I mean, if you don't notice drugs falling into the exercise yard, you wouldn't notice weapons. |
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on Nov 25, 2010 19:22:10 GMT
If my "outsourcing to China" method was in effect, there would be none of that visiting or chucking drugs over the walls mularky. AH |
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Post by Patrick on Nov 25, 2010 22:55:10 GMT
At the moment I presume judges are still going by the guidance laid down recently to discourage prison sentences because they are a bit full again. I'm waiting for someone to dust off Michael Howard's prison ship.
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Post by housesparrow on Nov 26, 2010 6:39:25 GMT
Apparently the prison ship wasn't that bad. I 'm afraid Iheard that from someone who had been there, and couldn't really understand why it had been condemned.
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). Frankly, I don't think it matters whether they are locked up for a long while or released early - it seems there are many that are going to rob, steal, mug, whatever, because they are just plain bad. I know it's not a popular viewpoint, but I'm pretty tired of hearing about serial law-breakers who are constantly handed out limp-wristed sentences. 
