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Post by housesparrow on Nov 14, 2011 7:58:28 GMT
Why did the British replace the "ize" word ending with "ise" while the US kept the old fashioned spelling? Does anyone know?
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 8:23:02 GMT
Why did the British replace the "ize" word ending with "ise" while the US kept the old fashioned spelling? Does anyone know? I don't know, but this is interesting. |
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Post by housesparrow on Nov 14, 2011 9:20:55 GMT
Thanks. The article suggests one explanation; changing to "ise" helps avoid mistakes such as "advertize".
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Post by jean on Nov 14, 2011 10:24:11 GMT
For all its length, the article doesn't explain why these mistakes happen in the first place.
The explanation is this.
The words are properly spelt -ize are originally from Greek. Most people wouldn't know which ones they were, though: how would they know that surprise and advertise are not from Greek roots?
But since most of the Greek words have acquired an -ise ending as they passed through French on their way to us (and I think this spelling has always been available as an alternative in English) it seems reasonable to spell them all like that.
There are other anomalies, such as analyse, which Americans tend to spell analyze. This is obviously a Greek root, so surely they are right to do so?
Not so. The noun analysis is Greek, but there was never a corresponding verb - we made that up ourselves.
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 10:59:27 GMT
Jean: Please report for duty on GWD as soon as possible.
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Post by jean on Nov 14, 2011 11:16:24 GMT
I emailed the person you told me to email last night, but he hasn't replied - shall I just register again?
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Post by jean on Nov 14, 2011 11:29:13 GMT
Here's the OED:
Forms: -ise, -ize.
Etymology: Cognate with French -ise-r , Italian -izare , Spanish -izar , < late Latin < late Latin -izāre , -īzāre , < Greek -ίζειν , formative of vbs.
The Greek verbs were partly intrans., as βαρβαρίζειν to play the barbarian, act or speak as a barbarian, side with the barbarians, τυραννίζειν to side with the tyrants, partly transitive as καθαρίζειν to purify, clean, θήσαυρίζειν to treasure up. Those formed on national, sectarian, or personal names were primarily intransitive, as Ἀττικίζειν to Atticize in manners, to speak Attic, Φιλιππίζειν to act or speak for Philip, to philippize, Ἑλληνίζειν to ‘do’ the Greek, act as a Greek, speak Greek, Hellenize; also, to make Greek. A few words of this form connected with or used in early Christianity, were latinized already in the 3rd or 4th cent. by Christian writers: such were βαπτίζειν baptizāre , εὐαγγελίζειν euangelizāre , κατηχίζειν catechizāre , σκανδαλίζειν scandalizāre , ἀναθηματίζειν anathēmatizāre , χριστιανίζειν christiānizāre , ἰουδαίζειν iūdaizāre . Others continued to be formed both in ecclesiastical and philosophical use, e.g. canōnizāre , dæmonizāre , syllogizāre (Boethius Aristot. Anal.); and this became established as the normal form for the latinizing of Greek verbs, or the formation of verbs upon Greek analogies. In medieval Latin and the mod. languages these have been formed also on Latin or modern national names, and the use has been extended to the formation of verbs from Latin adjectives or ns. This practice probably began first in French; in modern French the suffix has become -iser , alike in words from Greek, as baptiser , évangéliser , organiser , and those formed after them from Latin, as civiliser , cicatriser , humaniser . Hence, some have used the spelling -ise in English, as in French, for all these words, and some prefer -ise in words formed in French or English from Latin elements, retaining -ize for those formed < Greek elements. But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Greek -ιζειν , Latin -izāre ; and, as the pronunciation is also with z , there is no reason why in English the special French spelling should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize . (In the Greek -ιζ- , the i was short, so originally in Latin, but the double consonant z (= dz , ts ) made the syllable long; when the z became a simple consonant, /-idz/ became īz , whence English /-aɪz/ .)
But the OED is quite old now, and I think that in practice we've made the decision not to use 'ize' for all of them.
For example, the dictionary gives realize, and I don't think we ever spell it like that, do we?
So if we are going for one spelling, I'm happy with -ise.
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 11:36:48 GMT
I emailed the person you told me to email last night, but he hasn't replied - shall I just register again? I've asked him for guidance in our hour of need. |
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 11:40:24 GMT
So if we are going for one spelling, I'm happy with -ise.Me too. [By the way, I've stopped using Windoze on this machine, and my OED software won't run in Linux, which is why I don't post chunks of it anymore. Sad but true.] |
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Post by jean on Nov 14, 2011 11:47:15 GMT
[By the way, I've stopped using Windoze on this machine, and my OED software won't run in Linux, which is why I don't post chunks of it anymore. Sad but true.] That's very sad indeed, Weyland. I am always happy to post stuff from the OED for you, so long as it doesn't conflict with what I wish to say, in which case I shall suppress it. (I wonder if you could get into it via my library subscription? Should I PM you my library cand number, so that you can try? Or would you zoom up post-haste to Liverpool and borrow hiundreds of books in my name, never to return them?) |
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 11:54:59 GMT
[By the way, I've stopped using Windoze on this machine, and my OED software won't run in Linux, which is why I don't post chunks of it anymore. Sad but true.] That's very sad indeed, Weyland. I am always happy to post stuff from the OED for you, so long as it doesn't conflict with what I wish to say, in which case I shall suppress it. (I wonder if you could get into it via my library subscription? Should I PM you my library cand number, so that you can try? Or would you zoom up post-haste to Liverpool and borrow hiundreds of books in my name, never to return them?) Get thee behind me, Satan. Next time I'm in Shrewsbury I'll go to the excellent reference library and ask them. I'm a member there. I'm also looking into writing some software that'll run in Linux to access my OED data, if I can crack the OUP database format. |
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Post by jean on Nov 14, 2011 12:06:59 GMT
Next time I'm in Shrewsbury I'll go to the excellent reference library and ask them. I'm a member there. You don't need to do that - just go to this page: www.oed.com/loginpageand type in your library card number, and then you'll know straight away if it works. |
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Post by jean on Nov 14, 2011 12:47:48 GMT
Jean: Please report for duty on GWD as soon as possible. Just tried to register again, and had a look round while I was there. Found this: Riot: I think you're being hard on Constantine. The Roman Catholic church would have been an even more odious and all-powerful organisation without him.(Question: would it have been at all?) though she does add: (If he's who I'm thinking of).Then someone says: Hard on Constintine.....he was the one who authorised the crusades that killed thousands muslims and Jews and expelled them from Jerusalem.Hold me back!!!!! www.greatworlddebate.com/ |
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 12:57:11 GMT
Jean: Please report for duty on GWD as soon as possible. Just tried to register again, and had a look round while I was there. Found this: Riot: I think you're being hard on Constantine. The Roman Catholic church would have been an even more odious and all-powerful organisation without him.(Question: would it have been at all?) though she does add: (If he's who I'm thinking of).Then someone says: Hard on Constintine.....he was the one who authorised the crusades that killed thousands muslims and Jews and expelled them from Jerusalem.Hold me back!!!!! www.greatworlddebate.com/That's the spirit! He's dealing with it, and will email you when it's done. |
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Post by riotgrrl on Nov 14, 2011 13:48:27 GMT
Jean: Please report for duty on GWD as soon as possible. Just tried to register again, and had a look round while I was there. Found this: Riot: I think you're being hard on Constantine. The Roman Catholic church would have been an even more odious and all-powerful organisation without him.(Question: would it have been at all?) though she does add: (If he's who I'm thinking of).Then someone says: Hard on Constintine.....he was the one who authorised the crusades that killed thousands muslims and Jews and expelled them from Jerusalem.Hold me back!!!!! www.greatworlddebate.com/See, I like Topcat and was trying to be nice in joining in her historical thread, but I definetly lack a classical education, and my period of history (in terms of what I'm interested in and what I read about) is 20th century. If Gothboy had been around I'd have asked him, as he's the King of the Romans (history buff wise) but he wasn't. I don't know who it was I was thinking of, but I think it wasn't Constantine. I was celebrating whichever person it was who decided to split the church into Orthodox and Roman religions, because, whoever that was, I think made a decision which was historically great. I don't know what Topcat's beef with Constantine and the jews is. From Wiki, he just stopped the Jews owning Christian slaves and he stopped them from circumcising their slaves. In terms of anti-semitism, that didn't sound excessive to me. She will have a point however, and hopefully we'll find out what it is in due course. |
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 13:58:26 GMT
I was celebrating whichever person it was who decided to split the church into Orthodox and Roman religions. Wasn't it Lex Luthor? |
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 14:01:37 GMT
I emailed the person you told me to email last night, but he hasn't replied - shall I just register again? I've asked him for guidance in our hour of need. He says the deed is done, Jean. |
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Post by jean on Nov 14, 2011 14:46:57 GMT
Thanks. I've just set them right about Constantine.
But I have realised [sic] that my highly erudite post here about the Great Schism and the filioque clause failed to get posted.
Let me know if you'd like me to rewrite it...
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Post by Weyland on Nov 14, 2011 15:29:10 GMT
Thanks. I've just set them right about Constantine. But I have realised [sic] that my highly erudite post here about the Great Schism and the filioque clause failed to get posted. Let me know if you'd like me to rewrite it... Why the hell not? Please do. Did Constantine pick the site of Constantinople? If he did, the boy done good. Wonderful location. Crossroads of the World, one might say. |
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Post by riotgrrl on Nov 14, 2011 15:47:18 GMT
Please don't run away from GWD Jean just because of that twat Mick.
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