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Post by swl on Mar 14, 2009 22:30:16 GMT
Anyone watch it tonight? Quite interesting I thought, but sent a few shudders up my spine.
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 14, 2009 22:47:41 GMT
We watched it.
A bit of an over-focus on the sensationalised side of things; who knew Communists were naked so often? The old footage was fascinating, but I think I'd have liked it more if it had been a bit more about the politics and a bit less about the close-ups of the handsome young couple using a wire off the tap to bathe themselves.
It presented East Germany as a failed state, and then highlighted some quirky things about it, but it didn't really put the reasons why the state had failed in any kind of political context.
The F-M Transgender athlete - that was sad.
Quite interested in the idea that women had more equality in E Germany. Not a proposition I've previously considered. I'm sure it's bullshit, but have yet to work out why.
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Post by Patrick on Mar 14, 2009 23:09:54 GMT
Bugger! I had a vague feeling it was on tonight - so I looked through the Radio Times and couldn't see it anywhere - so I assumed it was on in the week sometime
So was it a bit dumbed down and not very "proper BBC Doc - more 'made for satellite'" type of thing then? - Shame.
Might have a look tomorrow morning on iplayer.
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Post by swl on Mar 14, 2009 23:12:16 GMT
Yeah, that fascinated me. Many of the women seemed to really miss it. I suppose the certainty of employment and generous welfare allied with excellent child care would appeal. As one said "I never had to worry about freezing in a flat unable to pay for heating".
The two Sixties singers really highlighted the difference. He was a "star" who sang whatever the Stasi told him to sing.When he refused, they threw him in prison. But his wife said it was a great time. She had a point about "artists" in the West being economic commodities, but FFS, in the East they were propaganda tools!
The shot putter was incredibly sad. I was wondering who the bloke was when they were showing the girl competing. When I realised, my jaw dropped.
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 15, 2009 9:45:41 GMT
Pats, I think it was a wee bit sensationalised, yes.
Watch it and see what you think.
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 15, 2009 9:48:11 GMT
Of course, the programme also told us what we already know; Communism does not and cannot provide economic growth, or even economic stability, and it makes people poor.
Communism is also incompatible with human freedom.
I do worry that our recent economic difficulties are somehow painting Communism in a nostalgic light, and that fools will start to once again return to failed Marxist theories which, at least, offer certainty to those who fear uncertainty.
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Post by Patrick on Mar 15, 2009 12:56:26 GMT
I do worry that our recent economic difficulties are somehow painting Communism in a nostalgic light, and that fools will start to once again return to failed Marxist theories which, at least, offer certainty to those who fear uncertainty. They were reporting this just a few weeks back - there are some people who are graduating back to it, with the idea that it's a kind of "New Third Way", of controlling markets so there aren't any fat cats. Ha ha! Which of course there were. In our own case - I'd like to see, when the Government set the "Nationalised" banks back in the market place that they be put back as "Mutuals" but more importantly as "Co-operatives", Where pretty much everyone has a say in who gets what. Admittedly, I've been with a mutual building society for years - and they still have their share of pompous old gits at the top who keep any newcomers at bay so they can protect their pension rights and have a well padded retirement. I had some voting documents last year - where two new members of the board had already been appointed! - They were therefore asking me to vote for someone who'd already got the job! The Co-op bank though has benefited from 4 million new accounts opening in this past year alone! It seems that if we had some MP come along and suggest putting the Banks properly back in the hands of the people - they'd be onto a winner. It's what people want! It's very obvious therefore that the marketeers and bankers are still pulling the strings within Parliament. I get the impression that each successive bailout isn't coming from the thoughts and deeds of the Chancellor - it sounds to me like he's going to the Financiers and saying "How much money do you want this time?"
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Post by swl on Mar 15, 2009 17:54:39 GMT
<<The Co-op bank though has benefited from 4 million new accounts opening in this past year alone!>> The Co-Op is the only bank that will currently give accounts to bankrupts, people with CCJs and bad credit histories. That may have something to do with it
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Post by Patrick on Mar 15, 2009 18:33:21 GMT
I think it was that they have seen an increase of 4 million more accounts than normal. It was an interview on one of the money progs - and they put it down to the ethical status, than anything else.
I remember when I was growing up - the Co-op store used to be a cut above the Tesco over the road.
Tell you what - they are pretty criminal on charging if you go overdrawn! There's not much "Free Banking" with the Co-op!
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 21, 2009 22:01:59 GMT
So, we came back from the pub to watch the one tonight about Czechoslovakia (as was)
Much better. Much more honest about the realities of Communism.
We have decided that Czechs are our favourite Eastern European nation. They're the most normal ones. Their equivalent in Western Europe are the Dutch - nice normal people but a bit dull.
Prague is beautiful. I remember my first time walking into Old Town Square and just spinning round and round, blown away by it all.
The Czechs are the good guys; an educated and academic people. And the Communist oppression of them shows just how uncivilised Communism was.
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Post by swl on Mar 21, 2009 22:04:58 GMT
But still they managed to find folk who said Communism was great But it's a fascinating series. "They made us live a lie"
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 21, 2009 22:08:41 GMT
But still they managed to find folk who said Communism was great But it's a fascinating series. "They made us live a lie" But it was obvious why the least educated and poorest thought it was great. For the first time ever they felt consulted and valued. That old lady they interviewed epitomised that. There is no doubt that Communism can work for people like that who do not understand the wider context, and live very small lives in any case, already restricted by the rural customs and taboos, so Communism didn't make much difference Sadly (for Communism) these people are only a small minority in any nation, and most of the rest of the people - the middle class, the small business owners, the farmers - got shat on by the system. Maybe the lesson is that a system which only helps the minority doesn't work, be it Communism or elite democracy/capitalism. (What a scarey thought. I am the elite. It frightens me that we have to keep the great unwashed like SWL happy if we're going to be allowed to continue to rule the country)
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Post by swl on Mar 21, 2009 22:11:14 GMT
You just see what happens to you in Chapter 3
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 21, 2009 22:14:17 GMT
You just see what happens to you in Chapter 3 Chapter 3 of the what? The Orange Lodge? (Baffled.)
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Post by swl on Mar 21, 2009 22:16:16 GMT
The next thread down
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 21, 2009 22:21:06 GMT
The next thread down Oooh. I wonder if I can move a post using my mod powers. I'll go and see what I can do.
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 21, 2009 22:22:32 GMT
Awww. No. I can't move your post.
Go and post it again in the right thread. Whoever it was you were talking to just might - an outside chance I'm sure - maybe not read a thread called 'The BBC & Communism'.
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Post by swl on Mar 21, 2009 22:24:11 GMT
In 2000 years when archaelogists dig up this thread, they're gonna be helluva confused.
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Post by housesparrow on Mar 21, 2009 22:26:00 GMT
I was in Czechoslovakia, in the mountains nearthe Polish border, when the country was invaded. I remember the planes going over and the hotel staff huddled round the TV station. We understood not a word but it suddenly went off air. Jus as well, or we would never have got breakfast.
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 21, 2009 22:28:22 GMT
I was in Czechoslovakia, in the mountains nearthe Polish border, when the country was invaded. I remember the planes going over and the hotel staff huddled round the TV station. We understood not a word but it suddenly went off air. Jus as well, or we would never have got breakfast. What, seriously? What were you doing in Cz'vkia then? (I thought you were just a young thing!) I have never visited a Communist country; Communism had fallen before I could really afford to travel much, but since then I've visited many, many Eastern European nations. It's one of Gothboy and my fascinations. The earliest was Russia, where I was in 1999, which was obviously 10 years too late to see things as they really were. What's your take on Communism then? I'm seriously interested.
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