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Post by everso on May 13, 2009 22:19:53 GMT
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Post by Patrick on May 13, 2009 22:24:18 GMT
Doesn't necessarily get you anywhere though!  |
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Post by everso on May 13, 2009 22:27:08 GMT
I think the bloke is probably, in the main, correct.
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Post by Flatypus on May 14, 2009 0:10:23 GMT
I think he is absolutely right and there is a strange cross-snobbery about the whole thing. On the one hand, we are full of Celebrities pretending that they are just like anybody else, though if they were they would not be celebrities, and a constant anti-intellectual bias that goes back actually merging into times when mere middle-class scholars were despised for their lack of breeding compared to the moneyed slobs paid to go through an education they never needed.
Whatever we hold against the Victorians, they started the idea of self-made that everybody stood a chance regardless of class origin. Hence the 'Received Pronunciation' that concealed origin and put all the educated at an equal level.
All he is saying is very traditional very Leftist thinking, that we may not all flower in the same areas but we each flower in some, and they are all equally valid. Chairman Mao would be the first to affirm that the skilled peasant has more social value than the second-rate intellectual (like me!).
It's something that most European countries, and especially Germany, have always accepted. The Technical Highschool, which Britain tried as Polytechnic, but now restyles University, is of University value but more practical direction.
Much more theoretical knowledge than Apprenticeship might imply, but enough practical to be useful, not to have to learn practical applications as a separate subject. The graduate understand how practical instances work, so can adapt to new ones better than the Apprentice with practical knowledge of how to use one particular 'system' but not necessarily of the principles underlying it that makes it easy to change to another.
When they start going on about discrimination against footballers and singers for not getting the respect of the intellectually trained, I'll listen,
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Post by Patrick on May 14, 2009 9:54:07 GMT
I seem to recall that there were one or two announcements from Chris Woodhead that just made me think "Nutter" when he was in charge. He says he has taught - well, during his tenure you did wonder! - because he just didn't seem to have much grasp on the world of teaching! I got the impression he was possibly useless at teaching but he had his own agenda so simply worked his way through the ranks so he could finally impose his misery on others.
It is very easy to come out with a blanket covering theory like this - I myself have advocated for years that Primary education should give you the basics and there should then be middle schools that are able to really concentrate on a child's abilities and work on enhancing them. Before a final period at a Higher gives them the final life training so they are properly prepared for the world and the world of work.
If you start dismissing elements (in this case, by class) as thickos then there will be no middle ground. Not in todays society. They will simply bundle those off with low incomes into the workhouses (effectively) and cream off the best.
What is needed is for teachers to have the Independence to study and record a child's ability throughout the schooling system so that weaknesses can be picked up on and polished, any Primary Head teacher can usually do this in all but the largest Primaries - yet this information never finds it's way to the desks of the teachers who will be looking after the child for their final and most important (arguably) years! If they did, any developing talent can be spotted early on and nurtured. If they can then come away with a report book and a summary of their achievements and capability they will be able to go to an employer and say "Look - I can do this - I'm brilliant at it - here's my record" Instead of saying "Here's my list of totally meaningless examination results that I got by having the answers drummed into me my bored teaching staff over thirteen years - none of it has any bearing whatsoever on my abilities and in fact I'm actually totally incapable of stringing a coherent sentence together but it doesn't show that!"
Run out of steam now.
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stephan
Lovely, Happy & Gorgeous!
Posts: 278
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Post by stephan on May 14, 2009 19:46:19 GMT
Father was a moron,his mum was clever-I got the 11+ and a PhD,
No children so my genes are no longer of interest
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Post by sesley on May 14, 2009 20:13:54 GMT
how did they work that out? a part from being educated and better employed,but watching that progam last night on more 4 "it never did me any harm! where a family were living in1970's style that the father had grown up in,his father was working class from miners family and worked his way up by learning to be a engineer and then installing the education ethic into his children.The father wanted some of that past ethic instilled into his children and tried to show them how he once lived and how they can educate themeselves out of poverty and nothing.
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on May 14, 2009 22:28:36 GMT
Of course they have better jeans, their parents can afford to kit their sprogs out in expensive designer clothes...duh!!!
AH
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Post by Patrick on May 16, 2009 14:10:00 GMT
I've just been delving back through the "Your Discussions" on the BBC - It goes back to November 2005! ........here's some classic "Everso" on Agas;  |
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on May 16, 2009 14:29:33 GMT
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Post by Patrick on May 16, 2009 14:35:49 GMT
Wow! Bit of "Newsspeak" control freakery going on there methinks!
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Post by everso on May 16, 2009 15:03:02 GMT
How dare they! And it was the day after your birthday too! The swine (should that be swine or swines? - I'm never sure) |
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Post by everso on May 16, 2009 15:07:42 GMT
I've just been delving back through the "Your Discussions" on the BBC - It goes back to November 2005! ........here's some classic "Everso" on Agas; You realise, of course, that my "council flat in Essex", although true, is a reverse kind of snobbery? I know I've said this before, but my mum always thought that the very worse thing you could be was "common". We might not have had much money but we were respectable. If your arse is in the gutter, your head doesn't have to be there as well. |
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Post by Patrick on May 16, 2009 15:23:50 GMT
[ You realise, of course, that my "council flat in Essex", although true, is a reverse kind of snobbery? I know I've said this before, but my mum always thought that the very worse thing you could be was "common". We might not have had much money but we were respectable. If your arse is in the gutter, your head doesn't have to be there as well. I've spoken to a few people who had the luxury of moving to the first wave of council housing. In Limeside in Oldham and in other places too - I saw a local Amdram group in Norwich celebrate the building of the first post war replacement housing in the city in an outside production some time back. In every case these were homes of pride! You were actually "someone" by living in these areas when they were first built. I guess it's just the management of the people by the politicians that has brought it all down - and taken people's respect away from them? It's a bit like - even when I was eating tinned chopped tomatoes and cheap white sliced bread for my tea 'cos it was all I could afford - I still made sure I had decent loo roll in the bathroom! ;D |
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on May 16, 2009 15:26:07 GMT
How dare they! And it was the day after your birthday too! I know! Proof positive that the BBC are EVIL!  AH |
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Post by everso on May 16, 2009 15:35:36 GMT
[ You realise, of course, that my "council flat in Essex", although true, is a reverse kind of snobbery? I know I've said this before, but my mum always thought that the very worse thing you could be was "common". We might not have had much money but we were respectable. If your arse is in the gutter, your head doesn't have to be there as well. I've spoken to a few people who had the luxury of moving to the first wave of council housing. In Limeside in Oldham and in other places too - I saw a local Amdram group in Norwich celebrate the building of the first post war replacement housing in the city in an outside production some time back. In every case these were homes of pride! You were actually "someone" by living in these areas when they were first built. I guess it's just the management of the people by the politicians that has brought it all down - and taken people's respect away from them? It's a bit like - even when I was eating tinned chopped tomatoes and cheap white sliced bread for my tea 'cos it was all I could afford - I still made sure I had decent loo roll in the bathroom! ;D Back in the fifties it was often difficult to obtain a mortgage. For instance, my dad worked in the London Docks and because, at that time, his work was considered "casual" that prevented him from buying a house. Often he brought home very good money, sometimes he didn't, plus they were often on strike (much to my dad's annoyance). When I was born my parents had to move out of the rooms they rented (the landlord didn't want a crying baby living in his house) and they were eligible for a council flat. Actually, it was a maisonette (had its own street door) and was the last word in all mod cons - a low flush loo and separate bathroom. At that time, and this is hard to believe really, a representative from the council would often come round to inspect the property to ensure that you were keeping it in good order. In our street there were no dodgy people. They were all ordinary families - most of them the sort of people who would today be living in their own properties. |
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Post by Flatypus on May 18, 2009 3:01:58 GMT
The 'middle-class' educated with respect for other people are not superior, it is the scumbags who collude with snobbery to be proud of being yobs who choose to be inferior and do just as much today with a black face slopping about like the apes that Teddyboys called their grandfathers who must now be looking on them with despair proud to enact all the racist prejudices they had to battle against.
Inarticulate violent moron is not a racial or cultural identity to be proud of (though it may be a stereotype). It was heartening some time back to hear a male West Indian teacher's experience of taking some of these racist teenage yobboes to school in Jamaica. Man, did they have a shock at both the attitude of West Indian teachers and of West Indian kids with no time for their racist excuses for barbarism!
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Post by riotgrrl on May 18, 2009 7:05:23 GMT
Not sure what race has to do with it Piffle.
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Post by Flatypus on May 21, 2009 17:16:48 GMT
Because often a racial divide that was not there is developing with a certain black yoof cuchwar that seems to be taking its initiative from the mid-60s USA of identifying education and civilised behaviour as white and yobbery as black. They have their counterpart in Asian rejection of the same for appeal to revolutionary religion. The result is to discourage more of them from 'middle-class' aspiration than earlier generations or whites, so making it the white cultural preserve they perceive it to be.
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