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Post by swl on May 20, 2009 18:42:15 GMT
No - I'd say it presents an opportunity actually. A chance to get it into people's heads that Jury Team isn't a party, it's a support group but it only supports people who believe in equality and non-discrimination. This is a good chance for us to get our message across. Good luck with that. Good luck with attempting to make a disinterested politically illiterate populace understand that fine distinction.  |
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Post by housesparrow on May 20, 2009 18:57:12 GMT
No - I'd say it presents an opportunity actually. A chance to get it into people's heads that Jury Team isn't a party, it's a support group but it only supports people who believe in equality and non-discrimination. This is a good chance for us to get our message across. To some extent almost everyone will say they believe in equality and non-discrimination - but they may well hold very different ideas of what that actually means. Even more importantly, they will ghave different ideas on how to achieve it. For example, some will say that equality means recognising differences and compensating if a weakness makes one group less likely to achieve than another. Others will say equality means treating everyone the same. |
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Post by swl on May 20, 2009 19:02:43 GMT
No - I'd say it presents an opportunity actually. A chance to get it into people's heads that Jury Team isn't a party, it's a support group but it only supports people who believe in equality and non-discrimination. This is a good chance for us to get our message across. To some extent almost everyone will say they believe in equality and non-discrimination - but they may well hold very different ideas of what that actually means. Even more importantly, they will ghave different ideas on how to achieve it. For example, some will say that equality means recognising differences and compensating if a weakness makes one group less likely to achieve than another. Others will say equality means treating everyone the same. I'd agree with that. But I think "They must be sick or something" falls pretty far wide of both definitions. |
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Post by rjpageuk on May 20, 2009 19:07:28 GMT
You are such a misery in threads on this subject riot you almost remind me of myself.
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Post by swl on May 20, 2009 19:39:21 GMT
You are such a misery in threads on this subject riot you almost remind me of myself. Hey, leave her alone.We're enjoying ourselves ;D |
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Post by Patrick on May 20, 2009 21:59:32 GMT
You are such a misery in threads on this subject riot you almost remind me of myself. Hey, leave her alone.We're enjoying ourselves ;D Thank Gawd for that! I was thinking I'd have to get the bucket of water ready! |
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Post by Flatypus on May 21, 2009 2:55:30 GMT
The Green Party started with similar broad ideals and no specific Leader too. But it found that it needed to develop that way in order to have some kind of an identity.
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Post by housesparrow on May 21, 2009 7:31:04 GMT
The Green Party started with similar broad ideals and no specific Leader too. But it found that it needed to develop that way in order to have some kind of an identity. If no clear policies are set out, no-one will really know what they are voting for. Saying "I'm going to listen to you all and represent you all" just won't work. Real Green policies won't work at all in a democracy. But perhaps that is a discussion for another thread! |
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Post by jean on May 21, 2009 7:49:04 GMT
...Real Green policies won't work at all in a democracy... I'm sure that's not what you mean, housesparrow - though I may agree with you that it will be an uphill struggle to get people to vote for them and against what they perceive to be their own narrow immediate interests and give them a chance. And in the NW of England, the fourth party in the Euroelections will be either the Greens or the BNP - unless votes for the other three collapse completely - so if that's where you live, you know what you have to do. |
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Post by Patrick on May 21, 2009 8:35:37 GMT
Yes indeed! Herein the "Armpit of Britain" we have a Euro-green. Not to mention the largest number of Green councillors on our "hung council". Though this didn't stop the hated Labour, Libs and Tories banding together to form the largest group despite the fact that it was those parties most of the population of the city voted against in the last elections. The Independents and the Greens won it effectively but the old boy network lived to fight another day and the hypocritical Liberals spurned the Greens with whom they'd worked quite happily alongside before simply so they could still have a place at the top table!
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Post by swl on May 21, 2009 8:43:25 GMT
The Green Party started with similar broad ideals and no specific Leader too. But it found that it needed to develop that way in order to have some kind of an identity. If no clear policies are set out, no-one will really know what they are voting for. Saying "I'm going to listen to you all and represent you all" just won't work. Real Green policies won't work at all in a democracy. But perhaps that is a discussion for another thread! The problem with MEPs is they can't make policy. The EU Commission is the only body that can propose laws or bills, Parliament just rubber stamps them. It's not like Westminster where parties can propose things like smoking bans, new taxes, environmental measures and so on. It's not democracy as we would understand it. So all those glossy manifestos that drop through your door with all the airy-fairy promises aren't worth a damn. I listened to the Socialists last night saying they would bring in a tax on big business and fat cats - how the hell are they going to do that? They can't. It's utter fantasy. They're all bloody lying to you. My argument is that politics is broken. The parties have screwed the system to their own ends despite less than 1% of people in the UK being a party member. We can't get better democracy whilst the parties are actively working against democracy. We argue about the House of Lords being undemocratic and so on, but look what the Lords have been doing over the last ten years. They've been a bulwark against the excesses of the Labour Party, rejecting 42 Days consistently for one. Without the House of Lords, we would truly be screwed right now. But look at the make-up inside the Lords - 30% Labour, 30% Tory, 10% Lib/Dem and 30% INDEPENDENT. In the Commons, government has to win the whips, in the Lords they have to win the argument. There is a strong case for independents at all levels. People who do not spew the lies and empty promises of the Parties, but who quietly work away making democracy work. In all the expenses furore, not a single Independent has been implicated. My policy is the simplest and most honest of the lot - work hard, be accountable and don't rip off the voters. |
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Post by Patrick on May 21, 2009 8:58:27 GMT
This is not a reply to anyone in particular, just something I've considered over the years.You very often see MP's of all parties coming together to support one thing or another. The very fact that each party has it's "Left Wing" and "Right Wing" demonstrates the fact that there are people who do feel the same in each party. Just shout "Europe" at both the Tories and Labour and watch them splinter for example! I'm often surprised that MP's aren't "Crossing the floor" all the time TBH. I mean - look at John Major? Born to be a Labour type? Tony Blair? The biggest bloody Thatcherite Tory going! Give Ken Clarke a Northern accent and he'd become John Prescott! (No, we'll try not to envisage that one!  ) that last example was a joke, by the way. If you took away the Party structure - I don't think the whole thing would collapse - but like the school playground that it is - you'll get "friends" coming together to work for their own beliefs unencumbered by having to toe anybody's line.
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Post by swl on May 21, 2009 9:10:09 GMT
Yup, spot on Pat.
How many times have we seen one party say "black" and the other side automatically says "white"? Parliament wasn't designed to work that way. It was intended that the Queen, through her Privy Council (which she appointed), suggested new laws then Parliament either approved or rejected them. But the Privy Council got watered down and we saw the rise of the Cabinet, appointed by the PM. Over the last 20-30 years, even the role of the Cabinet has diminished, Tony Blair effectively set up his own Privy Council, filling it with people he could trust, mostly unelected.
Power has accumulated in the office of the PM. We don't have democracy any more. Lord Hailsham was right in 1978 when he said Britain is an elective dictatorship.
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Post by Patrick on May 21, 2009 9:40:19 GMT
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Post by swl on May 21, 2009 10:30:35 GMT
In response to Riot & the news about John Swinburn, I've just sent this out -
PRESS RELEASE
Release : Immediate
Date : 21st May 2009
No Homophobia In Jury Team
Alan Wallace rejects the politics of gay hatred
John Swinburn, former MSP, has declared he would stand as an Independent with the Jury Team support group in a Glasgow North East By-Election. He has spoken of his support for Jury Team but the number one list candidate for Jury Team in the European Elections wishes to have nothing to do with John Swinburn. As an Independent, Alan Wallace abhors discrimination of all kinds and would actively oppose John Swinburn and his reported homophobic views.
Aware that many people have lost faith in Government, and the areas of life over which it presides, last summer Sir Paul Judge formulated the idea of the Jury Team, a new kind of political movement: one based on the principles of good governance and transparency. It was launched on 16th March 2009 with the aim of cleaning up politics by providing an umbrella for independent candidates to be elected to public office.
Fifty Nine Jury Team candidates, selected by the general public, are standing in the European Parliamentary election.
Alan Wallace says,
"John Swinburn represents the poisoned, narrow minded politics of the past. He has no place as a politician in a modern, equal society."
"I stand to clean up the corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable EU by acting as a whistle blower to the excesses and waste within the EU, whilst working hard to bring every penny that Scots pay into the EU back to Scotland."
"As an Independent, I do not obey party bosses in London, I will not join European parties and I will never be forced by a party whip to vote against the people of Scotland."
"John Swinburn is yesterday's nearly man. He would never succeed in an Open Primary where the public choose the candidate, far less hope to succeed in a Glasgow by-election where the people of Glasgow would undoubtedly reject his views"
________________________________________
Alan Wallace
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Post by housesparrow on May 21, 2009 10:40:18 GMT
...Real Green policies won't work at all in a democracy... I'm sure that's not what you mean, housesparrow - though I may agree with you that it will be an uphill struggle to get people to vote for them and against what they perceive to be their own narrow immediate interests and give them a chance. That is what I mean, jean. When I said "real" green policies I meant things like population control, which the Green Party long ago discovered is a complete no-no if they want to get elected. Telling people their air travel will be curbed if your party gets elected might also go down like the proverbial lead balloon! That, coupled with the realisation that goods won't be flown in from across the world, would I think sound the death knell for the party. |
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Post by Patrick on May 21, 2009 10:52:10 GMT
" I stand to clean up the corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable EU by acting as a whistle blower to the excesses and waste within the EU, whilst working hard to bring every penny that Scots pay into the EU back to Scotland." Woohoo! Saved! I had a horrible thought that there was about to be a "Jonathan Aitken" moment there! ;D Have you "released" that or will you wait until/if you're asked? |
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Post by swl on May 21, 2009 11:28:32 GMT
It's been released
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Post by swl on Jun 8, 2009 19:13:49 GMT
I just want to say thank you for all your support over the last few weeks. Not just the making me feel good stuff, but the challenging me on positions and making me think about what I'm doing. I don't claim to be perfect and people can pick away at my scabs if they like. I am what I am, another message board geek having a go. Riot was spot on all those weeks ago. Running in a European election is like running in 50 bye-elections at once. It's impossible for one person and some of the other names on the candidate list were less than useless. Scotland is huge geographically and the logistics were daunting. Plus, we made loads of mistakes, novices that we were. 50,000 leaflets landing on my doorstep without a legal imprint was a bit of a sickener. I would have really valued Riot's practical help but I fully understand why that would be impossible - not least because I never managed to convince her that what I was doing was right. But hey, I've had a great time. I publicly took the piss out of Tommy Sheridan, I had a rant at Union extremists, I got to call politicians liars to their faces and on national TV. I had coffee with "The Hoff" . I got to look behind the curtain and see the real nature of politics. I took a phone call from Sir Tom Farmer whilst sitting on the bog. I met the Admiral and her family of children and cats. My blog took over 5000 hits and more than 6000 people walked into a polling station and said they believed in me. It's been a ball. So Riot, I'm happy to honour your bet. Name your charity and £20 is on it's way. |
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Post by swl on Jun 8, 2009 19:14:28 GMT
PS, I'm going to do it again you know  |
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) that last example was a joke, by the way. If you took away the Party structure - I don't think the whole thing would collapse - but like the school playground that it is - you'll get "friends" coming together to work for their own beliefs unencumbered by having to toe anybody's line.